The state of OS updates
Welcome, Guest.
"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty." -Thomas Jefferson

Author Topic: The state of OS updates  (Read 449 times)

Offline EggZaile

  • Newbie
  • **
  • Posts: 5
The state of OS updates
« on: April 02, 2021, 04:16:24 PM »
I remember when i used to brag to my friends about Linux being better than windows.One of the selling points, was in fact the most annoying thing in windows: The automatic updates.
"oh, in Linux you update when you want, if you want. You have total control of your system".
Fast forward, now you have SNAP packages, which are a standard in Ubuntu. They update in the background, they don't need your permission and hell...last time i checked, you don't even get a notification informing of the updates. Ubuntu is still a landing point of a lot of new users, so imagine their face when they realize they don't have control over the OS after all.
Some distros are even starting to consider the automatic updates "feature". Some already got it, but not enable by default. How many time until its enabled? and how many time until you can't disable either.
Today i saw a tweet newbielink:https://twitter.com/tannhaus93/status/1377963740839219203 [nonactive] . I don't run Fedora, so i can't really confirm what this user is complaining. However, that got me thinking...where are we going?
Linuxmint, another landing distro for new users, shared some concerns when they realized a huge porttion of their users were outdated and with security risks. They are debating a way of nag you with updates, and who knows...actually force you. 
If people spend months or years without updating, because they don't care about anything in their digital life...so be it!
What's your opinion on this?
cheers

Offline Spatry

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator - Sysop
  • **********
  • Posts: 5840
  • Cup of Linux Founder
    • Cup of Linux
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2021, 07:25:18 PM »
I would dig around for ways to BYPASS or DISABLE the automatic updates. If that is not possible, it would be a deal breaker for me and I would look into alternatives. After you have learned Ubuntu based distributions, you may consider going to the source: Debian. I am 98% sure the Debian developers would abhor any of the Microsoft influence Canonical/Ubuntu has gained... I have not heard of Fedora or any of the other major players forcing AU on their users.

IF you would like something you can really grow into...

Try an ARCH based distribution. You can benefit from the Arch user repository (AUR) and then you will not be dependent on snap/flat packs. Snaps can be beneficial in that you can run packages independently of your system libraries but I have not had need for them on Arch systems since almost anything you can want is either in the repositories or in the AUR. For beginners, Arco or Manjaro will be to your liking. Arch based OS will not update in the background.

OR... Follow the Arch WIKI and learn ARCH. It is a challenge at first but you will come out of it with a great understanding of how your Linux system works. When problems occur, you will know how to fix them. Arch is an amazing FAST OS. It contains only what YOU WANT. Nothing more, nothing less!

Cheers!
Windows assumes the user is an idiot... Linux DEMANDS Proof!

Offline CwF

  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 474
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2021, 10:15:03 AM »
I can see the point of auto updates. It does solve issues, and of course adds some issues. Basic rule is the more well managed the distro, the more they will feel the need to control it.

You can still control it, and as fast as linux moves, we will be able to control it for years to come.

 They are for 'everyone'. Why not? Default is just that - the no thought option.

It seems auto update has been around awhile. Not only will you always be able to turn it off, the ability also can simply not be installed.

 The real damage of flatpaks and snap hasn't matured yet. At the point a major function is ONLY available in one of these forms, we're screwed. I forgive appimages, they're pretty tight. In their preferences there is an auto update tick box...

 It is windowization. I'm not much of a fan boy, so see it for what it is. Windows ways made it through the sieve of usage, linux is simply following the same path, for the same reasons.

 There is one thing the windows way doesn't include and that is the ability to build from scratch. That category (of user) stops at the netinst. The other class of users expect to end up at a functional desktop.

Offline EggZaile

  • Newbie
  • **
  • Posts: 5
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2021, 05:29:43 PM »
Hi!
3 months went by, and after watching newbielink:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDLOx2J4nAc&t=1324s [nonactive] again, guess what?
i installed arch linux, the arch way!!! 
Jokes aside, i finally can understand why so many people enjoy arch. You start clean, and add up your stuff. 
At least here, no auto updates nonsense.. i have full control. Hell, i don't even need a GUI for my package manager.
Anyway, i still watch many of your old videos Spatry, some of those years old. 
I still maintain hope that you create a discord server to hangout, or at least figure out another way to gather the community.
I hope you're well

cheers all


I would dig around for ways to BYPASS or DISABLE the automatic updates. If that is not possible, it would be a deal breaker for me and I would look into alternatives. After you have learned Ubuntu based distributions, you may consider going to the source: Debian. I am 98% sure the Debian developers would abhor any of the Microsoft influence Canonical/Ubuntu has gained... I have not heard of Fedora or any of the other major players forcing AU on their users.

IF you would like something you can really grow into...

Try an ARCH based distribution. You can benefit from the Arch user repository (AUR) and then you will not be dependent on snap/flat packs. Snaps can be beneficial in that you can run packages independently of your system libraries but I have not had need for them on Arch systems since almost anything you can want is either in the repositories or in the AUR. For beginners, Arco or Manjaro will be to your liking. Arch based OS will not update in the background.

OR... Follow the Arch WIKI and learn ARCH. It is a challenge at first but you will come out of it with a great understanding of how your Linux system works. When problems occur, you will know how to fix them. Arch is an amazing FAST OS. It contains only what YOU WANT. Nothing more, nothing less!

Cheers!

Offline Spatry

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator - Sysop
  • **********
  • Posts: 5840
  • Cup of Linux Founder
    • Cup of Linux
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2021, 07:32:00 PM »
Arch is truly awesome. Those who are willing to take on the challenge can see it for what it is and appreciate all it has to offer. I am pleased to know you found my coverage on the topic to be useful to you... Cheers!
Windows assumes the user is an idiot... Linux DEMANDS Proof!

Offline Ironclaw

  • Terminal Multiplexer
  • Staff Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 438
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2021, 12:31:59 AM »
You still have control and if the automatic updating of SNAP packages bothers you so much, uninstall snapd.
If you must persist, I will be forced to tar you, then gzip you and finally umount you.

Offline EggZaile

  • Newbie
  • **
  • Posts: 5
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2021, 06:32:03 AM »
You still have control and if the automatic updating of SNAP packages bothers you so much, uninstall snapd.

Yes, that's a mandatory step for me these days if ever need to install ubuntu, remove snapd and block it from ever being installed.
Anyway, even switching to flatpaks, i find myself missing aur.

Offline farevildee

  • Tyrannical Rule Enforcer
  • Staff Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 1826
  • Linux is learning and freedom
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2021, 07:43:29 PM »
The other good thing about arch iso is they have now added a guided installer to the iso. As jay displays here.
https://youtu.be/F3t3yqUvWSo
Friends don't let friends use WIndows or Mac OS.

Offline Crimson

  • Contributor
  • *******
  • Posts: 624
  • Defeating a sandwich only makes it tastier.
    • «FC» FunHouse Clan
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2021, 02:59:58 PM »
I run Fedora 34, and I wouldn't say the auto updates are a bad thing. I still have the option to ignore and cancel these, and I do from time to time, but for the most part AU are extremely convenient. What I really like about them is that at the end of the day I can open up the software app, Download the updates, and select Update and Shutdown while I'm closing up the shop. I don't have to supervise this process and it saves me time. On my personal rig, I mostly ignore updates until I'm ready to shutdown, then I run sudo dnf upgrade before shutting down.

My point in all this is that I still have choice and options, which is FAR better than Windows can ever hope to achieve. Even in Windows 10 LTSC, I HAVE run gpedit and meticulously hand pick specific settings while being very careful in reading each available setting. MS is very clever at wording things that make it confusing to understand if you're not careful, here's an example of what I mean.

At the end of the day, just because MS did a thing and Linux distro's are taking a page out of their book doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. From what I've seen since using Linux, our favorite distros tend to do it right most of the time. Automatic Updates are just an example of that.
Custom Linux PC AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Radeon™ RX 5700 XT 32GB DDR4 1TB M.2 NVMe 4TB Storage

Offline Spatry

  • Benevolent Dictator
  • Administrator - Sysop
  • **********
  • Posts: 5840
  • Cup of Linux Founder
    • Cup of Linux
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2021, 09:58:52 PM »
Arch once had a NCurses installer.... Using the guided install IS CHEATING, wipe that hard drive and do it over... THE HARD (oops I mean the ARCH) WAY! LOLz
Windows assumes the user is an idiot... Linux DEMANDS Proof!

Offline farevildee

  • Tyrannical Rule Enforcer
  • Staff Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 1826
  • Linux is learning and freedom
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2021, 11:10:18 AM »
with my internet spatry building arch the arch way is a pain in the arse lol.
Friends don't let friends use WIndows or Mac OS.

Offline CwF

  • Elite Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 474
Re: The state of OS updates
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2021, 11:56:01 AM »
I LOVE ncurses. How about a startx (big resolution and a mouse) to the xterm, the jobs fg and bg! I need a DOSSHELL like tasker for my i386 ncurses debian, it rarely needs an update!
Really though, I was around when 'we' moved from lisp cli to interactive ncurses, amazing!